Hear 4: Ryan O'Neal

In this episode, we sit down with Ryan O’Neal for a deeply personal conversation about family, identity, and the complicated love between a mother and son.

Ryan opens up about his relationship with his mom—how her values, expectations, and strength helped shape the man he is today. He reflects on the lessons he absorbed growing up, the moments of tension that pushed him to define himself more clearly, and the gratitude he carries for the foundation she gave him, even when they didn’t always see eye to eye.

A central thread of our conversation explores their political differences. In a time when ideological divides can fracture families, Ryan shares how he’s chosen to navigate those disagreements in his own way—with patience, boundaries, and a commitment to understanding without compromising his own beliefs. He talks candidly about what it means to love someone deeply while holding fundamentally different worldviews, and how he’s learned to separate political identity from personal connection.

This episode is an honest, thoughtful look at how our parents shape us, how we grow beyond them, and how respect can coexist with disagreement. It’s a conversation about maturity, empathy, and the ongoing work of maintaining family bonds in a polarized world.

Transcript

0:02

Hey, I'm Eric and I'm here for you. This was an incredibly fun episode to record. I kind of hoped that I'd be able to record with family members, um, maybe get to know a little bit more of a side of them that I don't normally get to see. You know, I have my immediate family, right? Uh, the family I created and I kind of know their ins and outs. But, you know, everyone's got their stories that they want to tell, and. I am so happy and excited that I got to speak with one of my cousins about their life, uh, a little bit of their struggles, what they're going through now, and the turmoil that they're kind of dealing with their own family, the other side of the family. Um, it was inspiring to, to kind of hear the thought process behind the actions that they took, and you guys are going to really enjoy this episode. I, I, I think because it's. I think it's something that a lot of people deal with when it comes to the ideas of family and love and duty to a mother, and also just kind of the division that comes as you grow up and you form your own thoughts and they kind of contrast to what someone in your family believes. You still have that love, but there's, there's a complexity to that and I was. In the dark about how my cousin was feeling all this time and what they were going through because they put on such a great, you know, facade and, you know, everything you, the idea is the grass looks greener, right? Is what I'm trying to get at here. I'm not a wordsmith, you know that. So I hope you guys enjoy the talk that I have with my cousin Ryan.

Eric 1:59

here's the thing. we're family. You're my cousin, right? But. I don't know you outside of, the jokes, the holidays, those little things. I know some of your hobbies, I know some of your interests, but I don't know if you've been through something, you're dealing with anything, those are those type of things that we don't really talk about. Maybe we should, you know?

Ryan O 2:20

It's like we, we want to, and we gesture at them, but because we're in the middle of a big family gathering with like

Eric 2:26

Yeah,

Ryan O 2:26

other people, we. Don't have the time to dig into some specific stuff.

Eric 2:30

yeah. Anybody, when you start

Ryan O 2:32

that's happening. It's

Eric 2:32

EE, exactly. Like you got married and you decided to tell us just out of the blue, you're just like, Hey, we got married.

Ryan O 2:41

in fairness, we got married outta the blue kind of, so it makes sense that the announcement is also outta the blue, just because it. It wasn't a hardcore romantic decision really. It was very like practical and like what benefits is tax wise right now. And it's like, yeah, okay. Or insurance was, yeah, the main thing is like changes to how insurance policy has been not great, so it made sense to make the switch.

Eric 3:07

that is such a hard realization that we're in such an amazing, quote unquote, amazing country. but you guys had to get married for the insurance,

Ryan O 3:15

No, luckily our relationship is super strong, so I've never had really cause to like doubt our relationship ever,

Eric 3:22

what about the relationship with your wife? I know me and you are cool, but, I'm assuming that's what you're talking about. our bond is strong.

Ryan O 3:29

Well, no, I was referring to me and Christie, but yeah, he threw me off my game there.

Eric 3:34

I, and that's what I'm here to do. No, I'm, I'm cur because you don't talk about it at all. I don't know. I mean anything about you. Right? I know, you found a girl, you had a kid, you got married out of the blue. you own a home. Right. Every everyday stuff. But outside of that, you know, there's gotta be a story to that. There's gotta be, you know, what led you to where you are now?

Ryan O 4:01

Yeah, so it's probably a big, long meandering narrative. Probably the biggest thing in my life that a lot has sort of gravitated around is the relationship with my mom. which I'm also curious about your relationship with your dad. So I think there might be some interesting comparing, contrasting, but, my mom has been huge. She raised me, not necessarily by herself, but she was a very emotionally engaging person. My dad, not so much, he didn't really talk about feelings in that way. Like most, dads don't. It's like

Eric 4:31

Yeah.

Ryan O 4:32

with the time. And looked up to my mom so, so much for the longest time and it wasn't until I started to branch out and hang out with other people's parents, that I started to notice some cracks

Eric 4:46

Hmm

Ryan O 4:47

it kind of snowballed from there. And it wasn't until fairly recently that I realized my mom has. Some real narcissistic tendencies

Eric 4:57

hmm.

Ryan O 4:58

it's been damaging me and my siblings for a long time. And it only recently started to unpack that. And then obviously there's more recent drama relating to, my child, my marriage, my relationship, all that stuff. So,

Eric 5:11

Yeah,

Ryan O 5:12

yeah, that was sort of the big thing.

Eric 5:13

Yeah. And I'm not here to pry too heavy.

Ryan O 5:15

For

Eric 5:15

and spec.

Ryan O 5:16

is nothing that I'm hiding

Eric 5:17

Yeah, of course. And this is, other situations where I don't wanna push you, outta your comfort zone. But if I can, I want, I wanna take it back a bit because I remember growing up with you. I can kind of remember your mom, right? so obviously your dad and your mom split, fairly early. you guys were very young. So I can imagine at that age that just the thought process in that point is like, you know, you have a mom, you have a dad, you love them, they're no longer together. but you're five. So I can, obviously that takes a toll on you, but it's not a heavy one?

Ryan O 5:51

So I don't remember feeling any super strong feelings about it other than being really annoyed. I had to wake up early to transfer between the two.

Eric 5:57

Yep, yep.

Ryan O 5:58

had, a previous marriage and that's where obviously where my older brother and sister come from.

Eric 6:02

Mm-hmm.

Ryan O 6:03

idea of like people who used to be married and have kids and then they split apart, that was already introduced as soon as I could understand concepts.

Eric 6:10

Okay.

Ryan O 6:11

it wasn't super new to me and it was definitely kind of like a slow, gradual thing. And it kept getting reinforced because she married and got divorced like one more other time. And then was, you know, with other people

Eric 6:23

Oh,

Ryan O 6:24

basically my entire childhood.

Eric 6:25

hmm. Okay. And you didn't see a lot of that from your dad's side. It was more just kind of a,

Ryan O 6:31

yeah, he had a one serious relationship. and yeah, it wasn't anything like my mom's constant, like jumping around. So,

Eric 6:41

but, but you still

Ryan O 6:42

mom for that.

Eric 6:43

No.

Ryan O 6:43

I get the situation she was in and I mean, I'm curious what the context would've been if I were to be able to like, see everything. It's like a fly on the wall kind of thing, Yeah.

Eric 6:54

And, to that point when you are, when you're seeing this kind of unfold and you know, you're understanding, like you said, you were introduced to it pretty early, so you understood for the most part, but you still gravitated towards more of your mother for the emotional connection. Do, do you feel like as you got older that emotional connection was kind of fading a little bit?'cause you're trying, like, for me, I would see the emotional connection that I had with her, but then all these other, and kind of like these relationships that phase in and out seems a little bit distant. Is do you think that played a little bit onto what you saw her as going forward?

Ryan O 7:30

Strangely, I don't think so. I never like formed strong bonds with any of my like stepdads or her boyfriends, whatever they, it. don't know if it was some kind of coping mechanism on my part, but they were just like, I don't know, guardians of the house or whatever. they weren't like people to befriend informal relationships with,

Eric 7:47

No, no, that makes sense.

Ryan O 7:48

to say, but yeah, it was, it was, there wasn't there to latch onto maybe.

Eric 7:53

I get that. I understand. It's just most people would sit there and say, oh, he, he understands the concept of, this is my dad. this is just a guy that's here. So it makes sense that you keep that deficient there, so you still were able to keep that connection with your mom, that emotional connection, even though, this was happening, which I think is fantastic, right? Because most people,

Ryan O 8:10

start to shift though there I like, you're a kid, you're just like, this is my mom. I love her with everything. And like it started to change briefly and when we would have certain conversations, we would start to realize that I am my own person and then I can think differently from her. There were oftentimes I would just have to kind of hide that fact because it seemed to upset her. And there was other times where I just, like, I couldn't hide it because I, I believe this too strongly and you believe this too strongly, and we would just butt heads and it would also piss her off. But what am I gonna do back down? No, that's not who I am.

Eric 8:46

Yeah, a hundred percent. And how old were you when that kind of happened? You started to be a little bit more outspoken.

Ryan O 8:53

Right. I was probably 15. yeah, as I was both out socially other people my age and stuff like that, but also kind of like, those are like really formative years. You know, when you're, when you're developing. You're like foundation of a belief system and all that. So she was never really religious. she was kind of like a vaguely spiritual person and like, I feel like a lot of people were back then. and I was kind of vaguely like, religion's fine. Like God probably is real, whatever. And it wasn't until 14 or 15 where I was like, oh no, actually I'm like an atheist like this. This is none of this. And she took it well, like better than I would've expected nowadays. But we could still have like friendly debates about it, I guess. And it would, like that's where things started to split, where friendly debate turned into slightly heated debate and then heated debate turned into straight up arguing.

Eric 9:44

oh.

Ryan O 9:45

from there,

Eric 9:45

Yeah. And that, I guess I'm assuming that happened as you got into your late teens, early twenties, is that more of that as she saw you, more of as an adult where her opinion was like, Hey, this is how the world is. You should do that. And you were like, well, no, this is how I view the world and this is should be.

Ryan O 10:02

She's got a weird political history in the sense that we agreed on the things for like quite a long time in my memory of it, we both had a strong, appreciation for like the environment as a thing that should be protected and stuff, and

Eric 10:15

Mm-hmm.

Ryan O 10:15

Not resentment, but like a skepticism of humanity's role in affecting climate and stuff. It's like

Eric 10:21

Yeah.

Ryan O 10:22

was a version of events where I was going to be an environmental scientist, whatever that means really. And she was super ecstatic for it. And then nowadays she thinks climate change the myth and that I'm

Eric 10:33

Oh,

Ryan O 10:34

like, yeah, it's, it's.

Eric 10:36

oh,

Ryan O 10:37

evolution was a sharp turn naturally in 2016 when the Trumpism began to kind of infect things

Eric 10:45

Yeah, of course. That's, normally how those type of things go, with that format. you had mentioned the timeline of 2016. That's kind of where the, evolution of her political structure went. Was that around the same time that you felt maybe like a larger disconnect from her, or did it happen sooner?

Ryan O 11:02

Yeah, I think that's where some of the cracks really started to. Get bigger. there was this general sense that I couldn't respect her and she couldn't, maybe that's not the right way to phrase it. I thought slightly less of her. She was this like monolithic person in my being. This person I could look up to and trust with like. Reality in a sense. I mean, it started to fade obviously as you get in college and become an adult and go out and see the world. Like you don't rely on this person for everything. And so that coupled with the fact that like, oh, not only do you not know everything, you believe some like not great things. And crumbling of, the pillar I put her up on perhaps, really started to cause some friction. I think both ways. So.

Eric 11:53

I see. I should start by saying that's heavy, that's rough.'cause I can see where that's difficult because you know, your origin here is mom and dad separated this, you were understanding of that. You kind of understand the culture there. But then you looked up to this person who has now fallen so far from grace and that rocks, a steady foundation and kind of pulls you back a heavy bit. And I assume that you kind of took a little bit more of that and put it towards maybe a relationship, like more in the sense of the trust, the hope, the admiration is now going to someone else. Or I'm not familiar of like the timeline from the crumbling of that or that happened. Did you actually look elsewhere to kind of,

Ryan O 12:36

So to rewind a little bit, slightly after the formation of like my skeleton in a philosophical sense,

Eric 12:44

of course.

Ryan O 12:45

as I started to seriously date girls, like obviously you have like little air quotes, relationships when you're in like middle school and like early high school, but that kind of junior and senior year, like. You're approaching something more of a relationship where you actually like go out on dates and you hang out with them for several hours a day. It's not just like a title. when I got to that phase in life where I was hanging around my girlfriends, there was definitely a kind of shift on her end where she seemed not hostile, but there was some kind of weird friction there. there's probably some weird psychosexual analysis you could do there, potentially, but not my area of expertise, of

Eric 13:20

I neither mine, so I will, I'll step back myself.

Ryan O 13:25

Yeah. but yeah, she, she got like really mean with one of my girlfriends once, and it was over some pretty dumb things probably. I mean, it was over 10 years ago at this point, so I don't really know what exactly it was, but I remember thinking like, this is really dumb thing to get mad about

Eric 13:41

Yeah,

Ryan O 13:42

like attacking my girlfriend over it. And this was probably the first instance of. I don't have to choose between my partner and my mom, and that's a really shitty position to be in.

Eric 13:53

that's a, it's a heavy position to be in, especially when you're just like, Hey, this is my mom. But she's got this wild, kind of unique mindset. And this is my girlfriend who maybe I've been with for a while, I'm a little serious about, but we're not married, we're not committed, you know? I can see that, basically put you in between a rock and a hard place.

Ryan O 14:12

Sure.

Eric 14:13

and as you mentioned, I think your mom was the catalyst for that, right.

Ryan O 14:17

but with a lot of things, she tends to start drama. I mean, I'm not gonna show on her as much as I can

Eric 14:23

yeah,

Ryan O 14:23

but she's a very dramatic person. she seems to invite conflict and sort of like to live in it as much as she might detest that she will dery, oh, I'm not dramatic. People are just dramatic around me. It's like, are we being honest with ourselves here?

Eric 14:38

it's, it's, good coping mechanism. it's a good, strategy to kinda keep yourself grounded with your own thoughts and your own processes. it's, we see that a lot in our society today. it's all just kind of like a big blur, but I, I, I can understand where she can kind of see that a little bit where it's that she lost a little bit of you right when you started becoming your own individual person and you're pushing yourself and you have your own structure, she thought she was raising this good old American boy from, you know, start to finish and you would just flow with her. So I'm sure as a mom, deep down, that that probably hurt her a little bit to see you kind of fall off, but at the same time, you had to right.

Ryan O 15:19

Right. it is literally a part of growing up is that you distance yourself from your parents, which as a parent, I'm sure is gonna hurt me at some point. But I hope I will be emotionally intelligent enough to know that this is a natural part of growing up. there's also a weird element of, I expected her to be used to this because I am her fourth of five children, so she's been through this before. I mean, arguably twice before me, I guess. yeah, she obviously, my older brother and older sister gotten, you know, many relationships and they probably had a lot more freedom than I did at the time. So they distanced themselves probably a lot sooner. I think the contributing factor might've been, she's told me on multiple occasions that I was her favorite prior to me turning about 15 or 16. Which you're not really supposed to do that, like,

Eric 16:04

I mean, no, no, you're not supposed to. it's fine for you. You're the favorite, so,

Ryan O 16:10

Right.

Eric 16:11

so

Ryan O 16:11

set me up for feeling a lot of pressure, but I think that probably is what made it hurt her worse is like she thought, oh, this is my golden child. Like, he'll, he'll never hurt me. He'll, he'll always be right by my side

Eric 16:23

right.

Ryan O 16:24

then when I start to branch out and away from her a little bit, then that just makes it hurt the worse.

Eric 16:29

but as you mentioned, part of growing up and part of having children is to look at them and say, okay, great. I have, I've given you the building blocks to go through life the way that you wanna go through life. I'm not trying to control you. I've given you my ideals. If you do not agree with them, even better, you are forming what you feel is right about this world. Any parent should sit there and say, do what you want to do with your life. It is yours. so I can imagine, and I believe you feel the same way, right? with that mindset. I can imagine you would want that for your children and her maybe not necessarily feeling that way. I think now I'm trying to psychoanalyze your mom, which is not something I'm trying to, I don't want to do that. But,

Ryan O 17:07

trying for years. it's a whole thing, man.

Eric 17:09

the thought is like, oh, that explains why the multiple boyfriends and husbands, that she's looking for a stable man, to kind of help her through life. And you were supposed to be that image. You were supposed to be the one man in her life that wasn't going to hurt her in any way. You were gonna stay with her. You were gonna guide her, and you were gonna agree with her, and it didn't really happen. I, again, just spit balling. just a thought. I could be, I'm probably way off. I'm probably way off the mark, but outside looking in, but the good thing about this is, it doesn't seem like it affected you in a very heavy way. In fact, I think it might've helped you down the line.

Ryan O 17:48

Possibly so a bit of context is my mom has had an incredibly hard life. Only some of which I even know about.

Eric 17:54

Hmm.

Ryan O 17:54

it's kind of hard not to have a hard life when you're a woman who, grew up in the sixties and seventies and stuff like that was not a great time to be a woman. because of her hard upbringing, she to shelter me a fair amount, and I think she mostly succeeded in doing that. That obviously the one thing she couldn't shelter me from is her kind of toxic personality traits. which we all have toxic personality stuff going on, like.

Eric 18:16

Yeah.

Ryan O 18:16

There's a big part of me that doesn't wanna judge her that much. Considering what she's gone through and considering what she's done. For me personally, there's a lot of good things about myself that I can like directly trace back to her and like because of that, I am thankful to her for, she raised me in a lot of ways, correctly by my estimation There's a lot of stuff I can say. Yes, that was probably a good idea to do that. it's just the areas where she was perhaps wrong were like, she could not admit if she was wrong. She didn't have that kind of humility in her, it seemed like. and there was this sense that like, because I've gone through so much, I am now like this ultimate being, like that kind of. Martyr complex sort of a little bit. That's probably not the right word for it, but she had a, a high opinion of herself that looked like narcissism to me. Looking back on it.

Eric 19:13

And is that now that you're looking back on it and you're kind of going through the motions of it, do you feel like that that narcissism is kind of like a crux of your upbringing? You know, if you really look back at your childhood and say, oh, this is truly how she was raising me. because you just said like you felt she raised you the right way in many facets, and it seems like she did, you know, I mean, you're a good guy. You're out there doing your every day, you know, you've got a great family, so you don't seem to have anything negative about you. But do you look back and say,

Ryan O 19:47

objectively venture,

Eric 19:48

well, I mean, what do I know? You know what I mean?

Ryan O 19:50

right?

Eric 19:51

So, I mean, but outside looking in, you know, it, you seem perfectly fine and it seems like she did a great job with you. But do you look back on your child and say, oh, that was blatantly a narcissistic move on her part. To kind manipulate the situation to put me in a position where this is how I had to be.

Ryan O 20:10

Maybe a little bit. There was, definitely times where she would tell these stories about her past and they. Were always kind of like self-aggrandizing and they would always sort of put other people down. and that seems a little bit narcissistic'cause like, she would never tell a story in which she made a mistake. it is kind of impossible for her to admit her own faults. that was a consistent thing, like even from childhood up to being an adulthood, I don't think I've ever heard hurt. Say I was wrong. She's apologized for things, but like in that kind of somewhat narcissistic way of like, I'm sorry you were hurt by this thing I did. that thing differently? Probably not. I would probably still do it again.

Eric 20:50

So now that brings up a broader question for me, and again, you're my family, my cousin, right? So I know you personally, and from what you've just told me, it seems like your personality, what you adopted, is you've picked up the traits that she didn't have because you are overly apologetic. You are completely like, oh, I'm so sorry for this instant, you try to get ahead of an issue, before it becomes that you're trying to fix these problems. for as long as I've known you, you've always been the, I'm sorry, kind of person. Even when you've done nothing wrong, when you're in the right, you're still apologizing for an issue. And I never understood that until right now you're just basically the dichotomy of your mom. You're just the alter image.

Ryan O 21:37

Right there, there's definitely that trend of like, you try to become the opposite of your parents if you don't like certain things about them. hopefully I haven't overcorrected, I think will. See what I can change about myself to make things better. I try to be humble. That's definitely like a big part of who I am. I despise that kind of vanity that certain people have and it always like rubs me the wrong way.

Eric 22:06

Mm-hmm.

Ryan O 22:06

Assuming it's super genuine, like there's that kind of fae vanity that people can have that's comedic or endearing a little bit. But if it's genuinely, like I am a God walking amongst chumps, then it's like I cannot tend to like those people.

Eric 22:20

Mm. I see. So you truly hate me.

Ryan O 22:23

No,

Eric 22:24

a horrendous, that's a horrendous,

Ryan O 22:25

I can tell, I can tell, I know you, it's,

Eric 22:28

you know.

Ryan O 22:28

a bit of an act.

Eric 22:31

Okay. So, you know, I don't want to make this whole thing about your mom, obviously. That is a big talking point for you, and I will gladly continue conversing about that if you'd like to continue. but I wanna really focus in on you, right? because in my mind, I don't get the opportunity to talk to you openly or freely as much as you would like, or I would like, or, you know, anyone would like, right? I feel like everybody's just so condensed every day and they just, experience their life, but nobody hears about it. And there's so much about your life that I think you haven't talked about. I think that should be talked about. And I think that, you wanna talk about. And so what am I missing? What are the gaps I'm missing here? Because obviously growing up you have, this life with your mom and your dad separate. You have your brothers, your sister. you're growing up, fairly normal childhood for the most part, right? It's maybe separate from the original base, but it's still good. What else is going on in your life that led you to who you are now?

Ryan O 23:35

So it's kind of a lot of things I think I like. investigate things in a kind of personal way. I like to know why people think certain things. There's a lot of sort of default assumptions about stuff that I like to question. so if someone says, I don't know, I just kind of like, this is the thing I do. It's like, I was like, but why? And I really like to know why people do what they do.

Eric 24:00

Is there a reason

Ryan O 24:01

is, I.

Eric 24:03

I.

Ryan O 24:04

Okay. So I think a big part of this was when I was kind of discovering myself as an atheist. There was this time I went to like a church youth group with my girlfriend at the time because she used to go, but she was also an atheist. But we just went for like the community element of it, which

Eric 24:19

Oh,

Ryan O 24:19

I know the youth group leader guy asked me like, what I believed and I kind of didn't really have an answer and I was like, 18, I should have an answer to this. And I was like, just so you know, generic kind of, what's the word? reincarnation based monotheistic soup basically.

Eric 24:35

love it.

Ryan O 24:36

he wasn't satisfied with that answer'cause it was a bullshit answer. I wasn't satisfied.'cause I just. did you know? And so I was like, why? What do I really believe and why? And then that process led me to basically like scientific rationalism or humanism or whatever, different flavor you want to it, sort basically atheism.

Eric 24:55

Yeah. And I think, we follow suit in that, that we're connected in that sense. Like I am, more agnostic, right? I'm okay at the mindset of like, have your religion, enjoy your religion, be happy. do I believe it? not so much, but if you give me some proof, then, I can learn, run with that, right? so I think there's a kinship there, but I've always been, I mean, from the get go, I knew it wasn't for me. I was a. Unstable kid. I couldn't sit in a church chair longer than five minutes. It was like, this is not for Eric Moz. you seem, you know, growing up you were perfectly fine doing that. it seemed like you were going into a little structural household, but, as you had mentioned, really wasn't that, and you just had to try and find your way, your own way. And, I think I cut you off there for a second, but you were gonna switch into politics, which is, I mean, that's, nowadays, that's 99% of a person's personality, right?

Ryan O 25:47

Sad to say, but yeah, there was a pretty direct line from atheism to sort of lefty politics so I watched a lot of daily show with John Stewart back in

Eric 25:55

as you do.

Ryan O 25:56

Love that guy and his ability to like show you obvious hypocrisy from like, kind of all sides, but especially like the right at the time, was it made me think like, oh, this is the obvious correct thing. And so that was sort of my like position that's started to evolve. And then I could destruct my own default position and kind of morph it into. a political mode of analysis that is probably not the most robust thing. I'm not like a political expert by any means, but I like to think that. know more than your average bear. there was a weird conversation with my sister where she voted Trump, and I was like, but why? You were pro-choice and like actively pro-choice. Like why is that your guy? And she said something to the effect of like, oh, his housing policy was better. And I was like, which one? And then she told me which one. I looked it up. And for Trump's policy proposals, it wasn't there at all.

Eric 26:52

Oh.

Ryan O 26:53

this out to her and she was like, oh eh. And I was like, that's really what we're defaulting to. And it was this like shattering moment.'cause for context, my sister is incredibly smart, incredibly hardworking, and another person that I hold up as like

Eric 27:08

Mm-hmm.

Ryan O 27:09

amazing. Person.

Eric 27:11

Yeah.

Ryan O 27:12

is a mother of five.

Eric 27:14

Wow.

Ryan O 27:14

went to college and got like a really, really high degree. she joined later than me, in the field is now like director of security at her

Eric 27:24

Wow,

Ryan O 27:25

while going to college. and raising five kids. She's an incredible woman.

Eric 27:29

wow.

Ryan O 27:30

to politics, she seems like a D to me,

Eric 27:32

Oh,

Ryan O 27:33

how those two things happened.

Eric 27:36

I,

Ryan O 27:37

sister, I'm not gonna say your name for privacy reasons, but

Eric 27:39

of course,

Ryan O 27:40

and I hope you know that.

Eric 27:42

So you have talked about these amazing accolades that your sister has, but then, politics tends to get in the way. It seems like that's the kind of the crux to all family issues,

Ryan O 27:55

It's definitely a divisive thing. I will say me and my sister can get along pretty well and it's mostly'cause we can sort of put politics aside.

Eric 28:02

Mm-hmm.

Ryan O 28:03

and with my mom, that's just not really possible. She got so into a lot of very like, heavy political things that it was inevitable to come up, even if it wasn't explicitly about politics. So. Everything became kind of a pseudo political discussion within seconds. Like it, it was unavoidable to her to have a conversation and not devolve into that. Whereas

Eric 28:28

Wow.

Ryan O 28:28

has obviously, like relatively apolitical. She, like, she might vote a certain way and and believe like certain of vaguely libertarian policies, but on the whole she can have normal, functional conversations. So our relationship is fine,

Eric 28:40

That's good.

Ryan O 28:41

my current best friend, voted for Trump and I was able to talk him around to being a kind of like fence sitting centrist for the most part within like a couple of months. And it was over, just talking to him every now and again and having like real conversations with him'cause he is, he's a nice guy.

Eric 29:00

Mm-hmm.

Ryan O 29:01

politically stupid and it, it wasn't. You know, just being able to dissect why he believes certain things the same way that I did for myself. Essentially like teaching a younger dude to, think critically about the things you believe and suddenly I was able to kind of bring him around.

Eric 29:17

Yeah. That's.

Ryan O 29:18

of like high and mighty and like, I think very highly of in that way, but like

Eric 29:23

Well, you,

Ryan O 29:24

know.

Eric 29:24

yeah, it's hard. But the fact of the matter is like you have a strong belief, right? You think that this is, why look at this way when there's problems over there when you can, yeah, maybe there's some problems on this side too, but there are a lot better than what we've got going over there, right? These are, you wanna get out there, get your voice heard, and I mean, it's the same on both sides, right? Republican, democrat, they're both saying the same things to everybody just trying to grab'em in. So it is something to take a point of pride to when you tell somebody, Hey, listen. I believe these things. Here's the facts to'em. Here's how this is better. And they sit there and say, you know what? You're right. This is kind of a better option here. so don't sell yourself short on that. I think it was good. And I honestly believe, talking to you that that would've been a good calling for you is, maybe like, an overall counselor, not like a school counselor, anything, but somebody to like a life coach or a guidance assistants.'cause I think you do well to raise people up. I think you do a good job using, you're very articulate, you're very smart, you know how to kind of guide through things. And I also think. this is from somebody who knows you. I don't think that you give yourself enough praise and credit. I think you look for it from others. I think that you want to hear it, but I think you need to focus more on doing it for yourself because you have achieved some incredible things. So, I'll say that off the bat. I think you're doing an amazing job. I think you're killing life. I think you're blowing it out the water. And I think more importantly, yeah, you need to be kinder to yourself and give yourself the praise that you deserve.'cause you, you put a lot on your shoulders, and you didn't have a crazy, hard upbringing, but it wasn't easy either. And as you got older, it only got more difficult from what you're telling me,

Ryan O 31:03

I think that's pretty true.

Eric 31:05

Yeah, it seems like there was a disconnect that came with your family as you got older, and I'm curious with that disconnect, were there really any issues in your life, not necessarily specifically with that disconnect, with the politics and stuff like that, but what were some hurdles you had to get through to kinda get to where you are now?

Ryan O 31:25

Okay, well then I'll tell you a fun little story. 2020 was hard for literally everyone, obviously. but the, snow storm that hit Texas in the winter of 2021, was especially bad. And we were all trapped in our houses even more than we already were. many people lost electricity. Many people lost water. I was fortunate to not lose either. I had both of those things. and that is when my daughter was conceived. And nine months later, we are in the height of the delta wave of COVID. this is back in later 2021. it's still pretty bad. so we go to the hospital to deliver our child and like I have been a mask face the entire time, and it, everyone around her has to be in masks It's just sort of a hard time. so when we finally bring the baby home, it was pretty a no brainer. Like, Hey, can you please mask, you know, around my infant daughter,

Eric 32:11

Yeah,

Ryan O 32:12

which

Eric 32:12

of course.

Ryan O 32:13

too far from my mother, which this and forth thing where I would ask for a fairly simple boundary. me and Christie,'cause obviously we're like, we're not married at the time, but we, we are obviously like partners in parenting and. been together for several years at this point. So we're in lockstep there.

Eric 32:31

Yeah.

Ryan O 32:32

And my mom is losing her shit with every single request that I have, to the point where she calls me several times, like actively screaming at me. she gets in such a tizzy over things I said. I mean, obviously I was heated, I was sleep deprived as a new dad and, and,

Eric 32:50

Of course

Ryan O 32:51

quite heightened from being attacked by her. I said some things that I regret now. but then my stepdad's response to this was to threaten me, like physically threatening to come over and either beat my ass or maybe something worse. I don't quite remember the time.

Eric 33:08

what I mean.

Ryan O 33:09

shocked me a little bit. I was like, holy shit. Like why?

Eric 33:13

Yeah.

Ryan O 33:15

so that was probably the biggest it before where it was like a small crack. This was like a hard break, I

Eric 33:20

Hmm.

Ryan O 33:21

having to defend my newly birthed child and my very recently postpartum partner. From my own mother and stepfather was pretty traumatic, and it caused me and my mom to finally go to therapy, after, a few more months of pretty heated back and forth.

Eric 33:43

Wow.

Ryan O 33:44

and I think it mostly stemmed from the politics thing. Like she viewed masks as an affront to her freedom and not a request from her son for the health of her daughter, you know,

Eric 33:54

Yeah. Yeah.

Ryan O 33:55

It makes me mad thinking about it, but whatever it, we finally go to therapy and we start to repair the relationship. it takes us a couple of tries to find the right therapist because she basically gets. Told some very light minor criticism and decides like, fuck that therapist. I don't wanna talk to them. And so we go look for a different one. And we do this a couple times and we finally land on one that she likes and I like, and the healing process begins. we agree to sort of forgive each other of all the past crap, where we hurt each other and yeah, we start to heal and then we figure, okay, we're finally good. We can agree to disagree to some extent and learn to respect each other So we end the family therapy sessions and she's not attacking me outright, but she still doesn't, clearly doesn't respect me and I can't really respect her. And we're kind of distancing, but agreeing not to fight about it, which isn't a great position to be in with your parent, I think. A couple times she gets sort of heated and she swears like this is a big accusation, to the point of her being a narcissist. But she's like, if we just have one conversation, one like six hour conversation, I can bring you around to my way of thinking and I'm like. I am a 30-year-old man. Are you really that convinced that you can just change me with one conversation? We've had thousands of hours of conversation over the years. Why do you think this one time, that's the key. Have you figured something out? Like, and I told my therapist about this. I wanted to entertain her because I like that kind of back and forth discussions with people. And so I thought like, I'll always give this a try, even though I don't think she'll succeed in changing my mind. and she was like, why, why would you do that to yourself? And I was like, I don't really know. Like why would I do this? And I didn't have a solid answer. And she's like, nothing's gonna change. She's gonna keep thinking that. She thinks she thinks, and you're gonna think the way you think and you're just gonna keep butting heads over this. We, we kept breaking things down and at a certain point I realized I don't wanna hurt my mom and she doesn't really wanna hurt me, but we can't help it when we're together. We keep hurting each other. And so I made the decision to end the relationship

Eric 36:16

Wow.

Ryan O 36:17

we just weren't gonna talk anymore. And I wouldn't go to any of our family functions And so,

Eric 36:22

Really,

Ryan O 36:23

yep. So our siblings all found out about it. and they, it's not like they had to take sides, obviously. Like they could see me outside of seeing her and they could see her outside of seeing me.

Eric 36:31

of course.

Ryan O 36:32

it's been a kind of complicated game of like, okay, how are we gonna do Christmas where we have to do it like three or four times because of all the various families now? But yeah, it was a really hard thing It was hard at the moment and there's been like multiple realizations of how hard it is and what's even worse is I've had to watch my siblings tear on the edge of this. So my sister, who I adore and love very much and think highly of, she's had multiple. strong, heated conversation with my mom about very similar things about the way she parents and how she like disagrees with my mom in certain ways and a bunch of like, family drama bullshit, basically.

Eric 37:16

Yeah,

Ryan O 37:18

it's gotten very heated. She, I feel like I'm bringing up family drama, so I don't really wanna do this.

Eric 37:24

and you don't have to.

Ryan O 37:27

she'll disagree with this characterization, but she physically assaulted my niece. like shoved her outta the house, but you know, physically and told her like, get lost. and my sister just kind of like took that one, you know, she didn't really, sure she was mad about it and probably had words with my mom, but they kept being cool, kind of. whereas my niece. Either saw what I did or realized completely on her own that this wasn't healthy and she should break it off with my mom. And so she ended up doing that. And now there's two family members estranged from the matriarch of the family. It's like,

Eric 38:06

Yeah. Yeah.

Ryan O 38:08

my sister is I feel like through some conversation with her that she's on the edge sometimes Probably feels like she should in some way, but she can't bring herself to do it. And I understand.'cause it was hard before and it only seemed harder after the fact.

Eric 38:25

how long ago did you decide to just end things completely with your mother?

Ryan O 38:32

I think it's been about two years.

Eric 38:34

It, it's relatively fresh in retrospective life. Right. And so as you mentioned in the beginning, that was a little difficult and here we are two years out, are you still struggling with that? as I imagine your day-to-day you have so much more going on that it may linger, but it's not precedent. And I can feel that maybe it only is really forefront when holidays come around or special events kick in Do you think that it's gotten easier or will get easier as time goes on?

Ryan O 39:08

For sure it's definitely slowly getting easier. it does help that I have, quite the distraction in the form of my own daughter, and, current events and all that. But yeah, there there's easy ways to keep busy and not dwell on it too much. I mean, I think about it all the time. of course. Yeah, I just try to think like, this is best for both of us, and I keep reassuring myself that I'm literally doing this out of love. I know some people say like, they'll do something bad and be like, I'm doing this because I love you. It's like, no, I'm literally trying to not hurt her by doing this,

Eric 39:39

You know, you're more than likely gonna have people, that if they do listen, they say, well, you're. Hurting her by not being around, you're not

Ryan O 39:45

Right.

Eric 39:46

But I think you're a hundred percent correct I think that you're doing a great job to protect her and to keep her safe because as you'd mentioned, I don't think that it's truly healthy. Again, I'm not a psychologist, not a therapist. I, can't sit here and analyze every little detail to it. But outside looking in, once again, I think that you have made the right call for you and your mother, and for your family. Honestly. I can imagine it'd be difficult for you to kind of have your wife, your daughter and try to, bring them into that fold with kind of your mom's mindset and structure. And I'm, I'm sure your wife isn't too keen on their political structure over there and not wanting to abide by. the mask mandate to see your newborn daughter. I'm sure that was an immediate red flag and a big flare for her. so you were finding a war on two fronts. And I, you were right in saying, you have your partner, that's your life now. You have your daughter, that's your focus. I'm very proud of you for taking that stand and really doing it.'cause you found the best middle ground possible. You keep your mom somewhat safe, you keep your family even safer. So I commend you for that. it's a difficult thing to do, especially as you mentioned from the beginning, this was the woman you looked up to, you idolized, you do the same for your sister, because, she fits the mold of what you feel is a strong, independent person and your mom was that for you for forever. So even with the therapy, which I don't know how you convinced her to go. to therapy. Wow.

Ryan O 41:24

So like as much as I dog on my mom, she is kind of an emotionally intelligent person on occasion.

Eric 41:32

Mm-hmm.

Ryan O 41:33

was like, obviously like this isn't working. We need to do something to salvage this relationship so that it was her idea initially to some one last go at trying to mend things and it paid off at least for a little while.

Eric 41:46

Yeah. I mean, she tried, right? and then we have to give her credit for that. And like you had mentioned, she was a good mom for quite some time. And, I think she did raise you, right? I think that you had a good coming of that. But now here you are a parent, you're a dad. Do you feel like you're kind of falling into the same patterns that you were raised with, because you had mentioned your mom pretty good mom, I'm sure your dad pretty good dad and you had some good, ground raising rules from all that. Are you trying to do the same thing with your daughter? Is that more along the lines of like, I'm gonna do something completely different from my mom and dad, and I'm gonna be a better parent because of it?

Ryan O 42:29

So yes and no. There's like the conscious parenting where, okay, if I stop and think about it, what is the correct thing to do in this situation Sometimes aligns with my mom, sometimes doesn't, specifically around like food time. Like my mom was a very like, finish your plate kind of mom. And I'm lucky that my daughter does eat fairly well and so I don't have to like yell at her and force her to eat her food and she'll just sort of do it on her own. there was that like instinct to tell her, Hey, this is healthy, delicious food. You eat this shit goddammit. And like to untrain that

Eric 43:04

Yeah,

Ryan O 43:04

think like. If she finishes her food, is this a big deal? 99 out of a hundred times? No, it's not a big deal. She can just eat whatever and she'll be okay.

Eric 43:13

And do you find, I don't wanna get too personal on this front, but do you have any of the tendencies that you see in your mom that you're trying to, pull back from? Because I can imagine those tendencies with a partner who kind of has a stronger mindset can be a little difficult. And I'm sure those butt heads from time to time, especially if you don't like them yourself.

Ryan O 43:38

so the, main identifier that my therapist helped me dissect from upbringing with my mom was my issue with boundaries, which didn't really make sense at first, but then after some thought I realized that. I did struggle with setting and keeping boundaries, both for myself and other people. it took a lot of reworking and reframing to really how to do them properly. and so having better boundaries and having better barriers around consent.'cause that was kinda like a big thing. the reasonable minds can disagree here, but mom was very much, if this person is your family member, you give them hugs, you give them kisses, don't ask questions, just do that shit. I'm raising my daughter like, you don't have to hug people if you don't want to.

Eric 44:35

Yeah.

Ryan O 44:36

to kiss them if you don't want to. it's all about when it comes to physical touch like that, that is a. Choice up to you.

Eric 44:43

Yeah,

Ryan O 44:43

which my family is, you know, grinding up against. and there's that same thing of like, my instinct is like, just do it. It's a sign of affection of your family. Like, surely that's the thing you should do. And then there's the like, conscious thinking about it. Like, no, this, this is like setting you up to properly understand consent. If someone touches you and you don't want them to touch you, should be able to speak up about it and, refuse it if you want.

Eric 45:07

That's right. And I don't think enough people are teaching their children that specifically. that's something that I try to push onto my children to say, Hey, listen, it, this is your body, it's your life, your choice. At no point do you need to be forced into these type type of things. That being said, I have a hot temper myself, so I need to control that, on that front. You know, that's more along the lines on like respect and those type of things, you know, being disrespectful and rude. but when it comes to their personal boundaries, I think you're doing fantastic. I think that is a, that's a great way to go about it. And, apologies for the bluntness, you know, fuck off with a family who thinks, nope, you gotta hug or kiss this and that, or whatever. If you don't want to, you never force. Especially now, in this day and age, the climate never force a child to do something, they physically do not want to do. I think that's a message that most people can get behind. it seems like you're, again, from outside looking in from me, knowing you personally, you, my family, I don't, I don't get to see all the, the shortcomings in the, in the fallouts that you've had. You have been doing incredibly well with your life, very. Good, stable job. you have the family, the home, it's textbook, I would've never

Ryan O 46:21

the outside.

Eric 46:23

Yeah,

Ryan O 46:23

So there, there's, there's a bit of what you see and what you don't see, and it's not like I'm intentionally putting up like a facade at all. Like I'm, I stay off social media, so I'm not like posting, you know. I will say there's a little bit of like grassy greener element because some of the stuff I see your mom do for you and you do for your family, I'm like, man, they, they do some really cool, fun shit and it's like, I wish we could do that. And so don't sell yourself short that I, I'm, there's a lot of ways that you are doing amazing too, and I envy you and quite

Eric 46:51

don't,

Ryan O 46:51

so.

Eric 46:52

no, don't do all that. It's just, I, I have failed upward. That's, that's what I, I have tripped, stumbled, and goofed my way into success. Right. it's catching up to me. I'll tell you that right now, two, two semi heart attacks will do that to you. So it's physically I'm falling apart, but now I, I'm realizing, as you get older, it's,'cause I've always been a materialistic kind of person, but as you get older, it's about the connections, the bond, which is why I started this. I've always wanted to do this. I've always wanted to talk to people, understand their lives, their stories. I always say I'm a collector of experiences, but as such, I'm also a collector of stories because these are things that, it doesn't matter how rich you are, it doesn't matter how powerful you are, doesn't matter, you could be as poor as dirt. You could be anything, right? Any human being. But everyone has a story. And if I can. Talk to somebody, hear that story, understand them a little bit better, then that's made my day. If I can go a step above and get that message out there, be able to have someone else hear their story and maybe connect that person with someone who's going through the same thing that they are, that's the goal. I believe there is a good amount of young men, boys, women in this, young girls in this world who are having issues with their mother or their father, whatever the case may be, and hearing you takes such a positive action towards it. You went through the same arguments, the disagreements, the issues that sometimes these parents will bring upon children and vice versa, but you handled it in such a. An adult controlled a strong mental fortitude fashion that I couldn't, right. I think most people would agree with me that, if someone comes to me a certain way, it's an automatic switch. I'm very quick temper. I can be ill mannered in those moments. But you looked at it in the sense to say, I don't wanna hurt you anymore. I don't want you because you still love them. You put them at this pedestal still, that you're willing to hurt yourself and kind of damage and taint this memory you have of these people in order to just let them live a, a good life. But the fact is you're saving her. 2, 3, 4, 5 hours a week of having to call you and yell at you about your beliefs, your structure, what you're doing, getting that stress off of her is amazing. And I think that is, you are a, a great son for doing that. And as indicative to your character, you're an incredible person for being so selfless in that manner.

Ryan O 49:43

Thank you. You guys have a way of making me feel good about the decisions I make in my life.

Eric 49:48

Well, you make good decisions. it's easy. And, that's something that you also need to hear, as every choice that you've made, no matter how you think about it, was a choice that I feel was a good one. I don't think you've ever made a mistake in my eyes. I don't think any shortcoming or fault that you think you have or any, little hiccup or maybe parenting issue, it's not you. You have not made a mistake. It was a good decision because it helped you get to who you are now. It helped you get to the person that you become and it helped mold the people around you. I think you are a strong person who is lifting up your daughter who is lifting up your partner, who is helping guide, coworkers and friends and, you've changed a lot a lives and I think you've done a great job of just being a good person with being surrounded by maybe not so great people. So you, don't sell yourself short on that one. You've made great decisions and, I, I'm just, sorry, I had no idea that you were kind of going through this with your mom. And I can imagine, now looking back on it, the events that you've come to, the Christmas, the Thanksgivings, whether it be at my mom's or Aunt Stephanie's, you're seeing a different family dynamic, a different type of mom, and that that must be, difficult to see.'cause I'm sure there's a kind of a want and a hope to that.

Ryan O 51:13

I don't necessarily get my mom's Christmases at Thanksgivings anymore. To go to your mom's house for those holidays and for them to just be so merry and stuff is such a wonderful change of pace and to feel like I belong there sometimes, it does so much good for my soul sometimes to go over there. I love your mom much for what she does.

Eric 51:37

Oh shoot.

Ryan O 51:39

she is a saint and insane hard worker from what I can see. So,

Eric 51:42

Oh yeah, she doesn't stop. She loves the holidays. and this is something she's talked about so many times. She just loves having you and your brother around because, even though you guys don't really talk much and then your brother's more like your dad just kind sitting there for the most part, she just loves you guys being around. she told me last time, you seem so happy. your smile was just so big that, things were doing so well for you. And that she loved to see that, and I know Granny's the same way. she's not super emotional, but she just loves having you guys around. I could tell the last holiday you had. You guys just seem so happy. everything seems to be falling into place for you. And I told my wife, I was like, I'm so overwhelmed with joy for this guy. he's doing fantastic. he's got everything going for him now. in my mind, you have been for a while, and I've been very happy for you and your brother, he seems to be doing pretty well himself. this is a situation where I'm glad I got to talk to you and bring you on because I would've never known that something like this had happened to you. That you've been dealing with this for two years and that, holidays can be hard and if they were difficult for you last year, you hit it well behind quite a large smile. And I, I feel bad that, maybe you felt like you had to hide a little bit of that, emotion I'm glad I know now. I'm glad, I know that when we do meet up again, that, I can hug you a little longer and let you know that I'm very happy you're there and I'm glad you're with us.

Ryan O 53:07

There's some aspects of me that wants to break the facade a little bit because. no one ever has it, like fully made all the way. And I, I'm glad that it looks like that from an outsider perspective, but like, even now, even having that two year break with my mom, like there's still other aspects, like marriages and relationships are not, a walk in the park. they're difficult raising a 4-year-old, I, yeah, I struggle with my own kind of like dad rage on occasion and, it, it comes and goes with her. Development and all that. So plenty of imperfections that just because you don't see them doesn't mean they're not there. And just because they're there doesn't mean that like they're the end of the world., Imperfections are going to be everywhere. They're completely unavoidable. And there's a weird way that I kind of love some of the smaller imperfections. I'm also curious to hear about your relationship with your dad because you've sort of make jokes, kind of, not necessarily at his expense but

Eric 54:01

definitely at his expense. That's not even, it's not even a question. and I, I'd love to get into that. but I prefer to focus on you because I know me and, and I know that, you know, outside of this podcast, I mean, maybe people wanna hear it, but I can talk to you private, you know, one-on-one, just about anything and everything, whenever you want. but these people don't wanna hear about me. They don't care about me.

Ryan O 54:24

You're an interesting guy.

Eric 54:25

I'm here. I've lived a life, and I'll definitely tell those stories. When I run out of guests, which, could be in a year or two. So we'll see how it plays out. But I really am happy that you were able to come on because I know this is just a small, little tidbit of your life. Just a tiny little, you know, it's a big thing in your life, but it's a blip in comparison to what you've experienced. you're no spring chicken, but you're not over the hill. you're right there where it's like you're just young enough to still experience these crazy things, but also old enough to know better in the moments. And I think you're doing a great job just kind of walking that tightrope of both. So, to have you on and talk to you a little bit about something that I think is super important for a lot of people to hear, a lot of people to understand was a true gift. I appreciate you doing that for me. One thing I wanna push here is, you have done a good job kind of going through life in a good way, and I'm curious, if tomorrow was your last day, what's something that you would want people to know? Maybe not specifically about you but more along the lines of something that you want people to carry on with.

Ryan O 55:43

I think the main thing would. Be just to never think that you have everything figured out. You're probably wrong about something right now, and you're gonna figure it out not too long from now. growth is realizing that you have been completely wrong about something. So the fact that you don't know everything is an opportunity to learn the right way.

Eric 56:10

Wow, that's, I mean, amazing. Didn't see that coming. I love that. That's fantastic, man. I appreciate you having, coming on, Ryan. This was, an amazing, moment to get to kind of understand you a little bit better. Again, I talked to so many different people and I've heard so many incredible stories. and this one was a little bit more, self-serving because I get to talk to, my cousin who I haven't, I know you for who I see you as. I didn't know the small battles that you were fighting, the turmoil that you were dealing with, the struggles that you had. And now that I do, I'm glad. I know, I'm happy. I know, because that makes me appreciate you a whole lot more. But it also, helps me to remember, when I see you again, when I talk to you again, that. I just bring in a little closer and hopefully I make you feel a little bit happier, a little safer.'cause you deserve it. You've been through quite a lot and I think the message, that you lead people with is an important one. I think a lot of people can resonate with what you've dealt with and what you're saying there. So thank you so much for coming on and talking with me.

Ryan O 57:18

Thank you. Hope to maybe come back sometime

Eric 57:21

Yeah, of course.

Ryan O 57:22

listen to all of your future episodes, whether they be good or bad.

Eric 57:26

Ah, You don't gotta do all that.

57:30

I can't say enough how much fun this episode was. It gave me an insight into a little bit of my cousin's life that I would've never known unless I got to talk to him in, in this capacity. And I think that's why I'm super happy for this podcast. I, you know, started this as a passion project and I have been so lucky to. Talk to a amazing amount of people who have gone through incredible life stories and struggles and emotions, and it makes me feel incredible to be a, a small, small part of their life by just listening to them. And now I feel closer to my cousin, my, my family than ever before. I kind of have a. A, a better idea of what he might be going through. And I hope that in this talk that we had, it opened up a little bit more, uh, edit point. I hope that in this talk we had, it, uh, helped us come a little bit closer and that he feels like he can open up to me a little bit more because at the end of the day, I'm, I'm here for, for him and I'm here for all of you that just need somebody to talk to. So thank you all very much for listening. If you're interested on jumping on the podcast, having a conversation with me, please feel free to reach out, shoot me an email, hear for you, pod, HEAR, the number four Y-O-U-P-O d@gmail.com. And I would love to set some time to just talk with you, even if we record and you decide you don't wanna post it and you just want someone to talk to again, that's what I'm here for. So I hope you enjoyed and I look forward to talking to you soon.